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	<title>Comments on: Programming in Middle School?</title>
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	<description>by James Socol</description>
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		<title>By: James</title>
		<link>http://coffeeonthekeyboard.com/programming-in-middle-school-255/comment-page-1/#comment-3904</link>
		<dc:creator>James</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Jul 2009 17:59:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://coffeeonthekeyboard.com/?p=255#comment-3904</guid>
		<description>@Trevor - You add a great point. Separating subjects the way we do does nothing to help students build connections. I was lucky enough to have the same teacher for math and physics one year who helped me really understand the connection between Newtonian mechanics and calculus. But, even as much overlap as there was in my tiny school, the &quot;science&quot; and &quot;math&quot; departments were separate. Given the deep &lt;a href=&quot;http://xkcd.com/435/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;connections&lt;/a&gt; between math and &lt;em&gt;other sciences&lt;/em&gt;, how does that make sense?

@Goldfish - Welcome, and thanks! I&#039;m honored to have you here.

&lt;blockquote&gt;So it’s like understanding how a car works, how the weather forecast is made, or how electricity may be generated, or how the heart pumps blood around the body.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Exactly. You don&#039;t need to be a doctor or electrical engineer, but you have significantly more control over your life and interactions if you know the basics. Even if it just helps you know who to call.

@Colleen - 

&lt;blockquote&gt;In general, students who have spent at least one year in the program appear to view math differently from students who have not had this experience. They see math as a tool; something they can call upon to “make things happen”, as one 7th grader stated. Students who do not participate tend to view math as an endless list of formulas and rules to memorize.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I cannot think of a more compelling bit of evidence. Math is a fascinating and powerful tool, and so often it&#039;s turned into a boring and monotonous punishment, removed from all applications. Some of us take to the abstractions like fish to water, but it&#039;s a small group. The real crime is that everyone--even those who are &quot;good&quot; at it&#8212;sees math as a useless, inapplicable pursuit, including the teachers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Trevor &#8211; You add a great point. Separating subjects the way we do does nothing to help students build connections. I was lucky enough to have the same teacher for math and physics one year who helped me really understand the connection between Newtonian mechanics and calculus. But, even as much overlap as there was in my tiny school, the &#8220;science&#8221; and &#8220;math&#8221; departments were separate. Given the deep <a href="http://xkcd.com/435/" rel="nofollow">connections</a> between math and <em>other sciences</em>, how does that make sense?</p>
<p>@Goldfish &#8211; Welcome, and thanks! I&#8217;m honored to have you here.</p>
<blockquote><p>So it’s like understanding how a car works, how the weather forecast is made, or how electricity may be generated, or how the heart pumps blood around the body.</p></blockquote>
<p>Exactly. You don&#8217;t need to be a doctor or electrical engineer, but you have significantly more control over your life and interactions if you know the basics. Even if it just helps you know who to call.</p>
<p>@Colleen &#8211; </p>
<blockquote><p>In general, students who have spent at least one year in the program appear to view math differently from students who have not had this experience. They see math as a tool; something they can call upon to “make things happen”, as one 7th grader stated. Students who do not participate tend to view math as an endless list of formulas and rules to memorize.</p></blockquote>
<p>I cannot think of a more compelling bit of evidence. Math is a fascinating and powerful tool, and so often it&#8217;s turned into a boring and monotonous punishment, removed from all applications. Some of us take to the abstractions like fish to water, but it&#8217;s a small group. The real crime is that everyone&#8211;even those who are &#8220;good&#8221; at it&mdash;sees math as a useless, inapplicable pursuit, including the teachers.</p>
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		<title>By: Sri</title>
		<link>http://coffeeonthekeyboard.com/programming-in-middle-school-255/comment-page-1/#comment-3903</link>
		<dc:creator>Sri</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Jul 2009 16:06:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://coffeeonthekeyboard.com/?p=255#comment-3903</guid>
		<description>Hi,
This is one of the most f.a.q by many of my juniors, so I have collected a list of articles and sites that clarifies this. Check out this below link for the same..

http://markthispage.blogspot.com/2009/06/best-programming-languages-for.html

Also, if you want to learn more, go to home page of the blog and check the programming section -- I have collected lots of good links about all the popular programming languages -- Hope this helps.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi,<br />
This is one of the most f.a.q by many of my juniors, so I have collected a list of articles and sites that clarifies this. Check out this below link for the same..</p>
<p><a href="http://markthispage.blogspot.com/2009/06/best-programming-languages-for.html" rel="nofollow">http://markthispage.blogspot.com/2009/06/best-programming-languages-for.html</a></p>
<p>Also, if you want to learn more, go to home page of the blog and check the programming section &#8212; I have collected lots of good links about all the popular programming languages &#8212; Hope this helps.</p>
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		<title>By: Colleen King</title>
		<link>http://coffeeonthekeyboard.com/programming-in-middle-school-255/comment-page-1/#comment-3901</link>
		<dc:creator>Colleen King</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Jul 2009 15:03:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://coffeeonthekeyboard.com/?p=255#comment-3901</guid>
		<description>Thank you for writing this blog and inviting me to continue the conversation. This is an important topic for which I have great passion. I particularly like the comparison you made between the study of mathematics and that of programming. There are some very strong similarities.
 
I teach students at a math learning center. We integrate programming with mathematics as early as kindergarten and continue all the way through high school.
 
Children in grades K-3 program through a robot called Roamer. Roamer is equipped with a basic Logo interpreter. Children can program Roamer to move forward and back any number of steps and turn any number of degrees. Roamer can also draw geometric figures. Computer concepts include procedures and loops. For example, when programming a square, children will first enter: fd 50, rt 90, fd 50, rt 90, fd 50, rt 90, fd 50 rt 90. A simple loop reduces the program to: repeat 4 [fd 50 rt 90].
 
Students in grades 4-8 program with Microworlds and Scratch. It is here that students first encounter variables and functions. Simple games, puzzles and simulations are the main focus. Number operations, probability, proportion, geometry, and linear relationships are the predominant math concepts.
 
Our high school students work primarily with Actionscript 3 in the Flash environment. They use what they&#039;ve learned about functions (linear, quadratic, exponential, trig) to program various types of animation. Students have programmed amusement park rides, created spirograph curves, and modeled real world systems.  
 
During each stage, students are highly engaged while immersed in a world of mathematics and problem solving. In general, students who have spent at least one year in the program appear to view math differently from students who have not had this experience. They see math as a tool; something they can call upon to &quot;make things happen&quot;, as one 7th grader stated. Students who do not participate tend to view math as an endless list of formulas and rules to memorize. This observation alone provides a very compelling reason to teach math and programming together.

Why should children learn to program in math class?
1. Programming takes abstract concepts such as number, angle, variable, and functions and makes them more tangible.
2. Programming a computer to carry out an algorithm (pemdas, GCF, LCM, etc) makes the process exceptionally clear. Students must reduce the algorithm into its most basic components.   
3. When programming, math concepts arise naturally which means that advanced concepts can be accessed sooner. Rather than conforming to a predetermined order of topics, children have the opportunity to learn math on a &quot;need to know&quot; basis.  
4. Attitudes toward math are generally more positive. This means that students are likely to continue their study of math at higher levels.
   
Why should children learn to program in general?
1. Learning to think logically is an innate benefit of programming. Children learn to break down large problems into smaller ones. This skill is easily transferred to other areas. 
2. The ability to control a computer is becoming as important as knowing how to work with numbers and manipulate words. Those who lack this ability, as with numbers and words, will have a tremendous disadvantage. 
3. Through programming and, specifically,  the process of debugging, children develop perseverence and determination. The end result  (animation, working game, etc) is highly motivating.
4. Programming is another form of expression, much like writing and creating music. With programming, children not only imagine any type of world they wish; they have the potential to bring that world to life. Children should have as many expressive outlets as possible.

I&#039;m looking forward to hearing other people&#039;s views.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you for writing this blog and inviting me to continue the conversation. This is an important topic for which I have great passion. I particularly like the comparison you made between the study of mathematics and that of programming. There are some very strong similarities.</p>
<p>I teach students at a math learning center. We integrate programming with mathematics as early as kindergarten and continue all the way through high school.</p>
<p>Children in grades K-3 program through a robot called Roamer. Roamer is equipped with a basic Logo interpreter. Children can program Roamer to move forward and back any number of steps and turn any number of degrees. Roamer can also draw geometric figures. Computer concepts include procedures and loops. For example, when programming a square, children will first enter: fd 50, rt 90, fd 50, rt 90, fd 50, rt 90, fd 50 rt 90. A simple loop reduces the program to: repeat 4 [fd 50 rt 90].</p>
<p>Students in grades 4-8 program with Microworlds and Scratch. It is here that students first encounter variables and functions. Simple games, puzzles and simulations are the main focus. Number operations, probability, proportion, geometry, and linear relationships are the predominant math concepts.</p>
<p>Our high school students work primarily with Actionscript 3 in the Flash environment. They use what they&#8217;ve learned about functions (linear, quadratic, exponential, trig) to program various types of animation. Students have programmed amusement park rides, created spirograph curves, and modeled real world systems.  </p>
<p>During each stage, students are highly engaged while immersed in a world of mathematics and problem solving. In general, students who have spent at least one year in the program appear to view math differently from students who have not had this experience. They see math as a tool; something they can call upon to &#8220;make things happen&#8221;, as one 7th grader stated. Students who do not participate tend to view math as an endless list of formulas and rules to memorize. This observation alone provides a very compelling reason to teach math and programming together.</p>
<p>Why should children learn to program in math class?<br />
1. Programming takes abstract concepts such as number, angle, variable, and functions and makes them more tangible.<br />
2. Programming a computer to carry out an algorithm (pemdas, GCF, LCM, etc) makes the process exceptionally clear. Students must reduce the algorithm into its most basic components.<br />
3. When programming, math concepts arise naturally which means that advanced concepts can be accessed sooner. Rather than conforming to a predetermined order of topics, children have the opportunity to learn math on a &#8220;need to know&#8221; basis.<br />
4. Attitudes toward math are generally more positive. This means that students are likely to continue their study of math at higher levels.</p>
<p>Why should children learn to program in general?<br />
1. Learning to think logically is an innate benefit of programming. Children learn to break down large problems into smaller ones. This skill is easily transferred to other areas.<br />
2. The ability to control a computer is becoming as important as knowing how to work with numbers and manipulate words. Those who lack this ability, as with numbers and words, will have a tremendous disadvantage.<br />
3. Through programming and, specifically,  the process of debugging, children develop perseverence and determination. The end result  (animation, working game, etc) is highly motivating.<br />
4. Programming is another form of expression, much like writing and creating music. With programming, children not only imagine any type of world they wish; they have the potential to bring that world to life. Children should have as many expressive outlets as possible.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m looking forward to hearing other people&#8217;s views.</p>
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		<title>By: The Goldfish</title>
		<link>http://coffeeonthekeyboard.com/programming-in-middle-school-255/comment-page-1/#comment-3898</link>
		<dc:creator>The Goldfish</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Jul 2009 22:04:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://coffeeonthekeyboard.com/?p=255#comment-3898</guid>
		<description>We did a little bit of programming at in Maths at the beginning of high school. The advantage I feel it gave me, outside Maths itself and perhaps coping better with the little bit of HTML, CSS, javascript etc that we&#039;ve all had to deal with in life, is having some very basic understanding of the tools I use every day.

So it&#039;s like understanding how a car works, how the weather forecast is made, or how electricity may be generated, or how the heart pumps blood around the body. Programming is so much part of our lives that I&#039;m not sure a practical or economic argument is necessary. And of course, if kids get into it, it can be a fantastically medium for creativity and self-expression, which most people would agree is a good thing.

Congratulations on the new job, by the way!

(came here via your Dad on Twitter)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We did a little bit of programming at in Maths at the beginning of high school. The advantage I feel it gave me, outside Maths itself and perhaps coping better with the little bit of HTML, CSS, javascript etc that we&#8217;ve all had to deal with in life, is having some very basic understanding of the tools I use every day.</p>
<p>So it&#8217;s like understanding how a car works, how the weather forecast is made, or how electricity may be generated, or how the heart pumps blood around the body. Programming is so much part of our lives that I&#8217;m not sure a practical or economic argument is necessary. And of course, if kids get into it, it can be a fantastically medium for creativity and self-expression, which most people would agree is a good thing.</p>
<p>Congratulations on the new job, by the way!</p>
<p>(came here via your Dad on Twitter)</p>
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		<title>By: Trevor Meister</title>
		<link>http://coffeeonthekeyboard.com/programming-in-middle-school-255/comment-page-1/#comment-3897</link>
		<dc:creator>Trevor Meister</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Jul 2009 21:37:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://coffeeonthekeyboard.com/?p=255#comment-3897</guid>
		<description>Very well written and right on the mark.  Some fundamental exposure to elements of programming would be helpful for many subjects, and as you mention, especially mathematics.  In addition to the examples of variables and functions generally, add in working with 2d or 3d graphics in a programming environment and you are set. Even in kid friendly programming environments like logo or scratch one can learn plenty about coordinate geometry,plane geometry,angles,vectors,you name it. One of the difficulties I have seen though is the separation of subject areas that have much in common and complement one another ie. &quot;programming&quot;, &quot;mathematics&quot;, &quot;physics&quot; into their own isolated compartments. If a student was lucky enough to be taking all three at the same time, how much do you want to bet three different teachers are involved, and at times, explain the same thing using 3 different sets of terminology.  Some students will see the connections on their own and start to transfer knowledge and strategies to the other subjects.  This should be good thing, but how often do they end up penalized (wrongly) for not doing a particular problem the way they were showed.  (How dare they recognize a projectile motion problem as a type of quadratic equation and solve using techniques other than the standard &quot;formulas&quot;). Even worse, heaven help them if they figure out how to generalize a solution strategy to a whole class of problems and write a program (perhaps on their graphing calculator) that allows them to obtain solutions by supplying relevant input parameters.  How many students are congratulated when they explain that the three pages of homework questions they were assigned were essentially the same and could be handled with the simple program they wrote, eliminating hours of tedious work and saving paper by generating only the answers required?  Not many I bet. If there was an approach used to tie it all together, and use elements of programming to strengthen understanding of mathematical concepts it could be very powerful.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very well written and right on the mark.  Some fundamental exposure to elements of programming would be helpful for many subjects, and as you mention, especially mathematics.  In addition to the examples of variables and functions generally, add in working with 2d or 3d graphics in a programming environment and you are set. Even in kid friendly programming environments like logo or scratch one can learn plenty about coordinate geometry,plane geometry,angles,vectors,you name it. One of the difficulties I have seen though is the separation of subject areas that have much in common and complement one another ie. &#8220;programming&#8221;, &#8220;mathematics&#8221;, &#8220;physics&#8221; into their own isolated compartments. If a student was lucky enough to be taking all three at the same time, how much do you want to bet three different teachers are involved, and at times, explain the same thing using 3 different sets of terminology.  Some students will see the connections on their own and start to transfer knowledge and strategies to the other subjects.  This should be good thing, but how often do they end up penalized (wrongly) for not doing a particular problem the way they were showed.  (How dare they recognize a projectile motion problem as a type of quadratic equation and solve using techniques other than the standard &#8220;formulas&#8221;). Even worse, heaven help them if they figure out how to generalize a solution strategy to a whole class of problems and write a program (perhaps on their graphing calculator) that allows them to obtain solutions by supplying relevant input parameters.  How many students are congratulated when they explain that the three pages of homework questions they were assigned were essentially the same and could be handled with the simple program they wrote, eliminating hours of tedious work and saving paper by generating only the answers required?  Not many I bet. If there was an approach used to tie it all together, and use elements of programming to strengthen understanding of mathematical concepts it could be very powerful.</p>
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